I haven't really been following this all that closely -- did they ever say why they went from Pow Wow to Kinja? Are those two products from the same company (if that question makes any sense -- I assume they outsource this shit but maybe they created this all in-house)?
I don't know what happened to PowWow, but Kinja is apparently a Gawker thing:
"With the intention of making web logs more accessible to the public, Nick Denton of Gawker Media and Meg Hourihan of Pyra Labs created Kinja, which began as an investigation into the navigation of web logs. It was dubbed Kinja in October of 2003."
I just noticed this. The comments with multiple +1s are shoved down to the bottom. You got so many so quickly that it was dismissed. This happened with PowWow: an initial dismissal meant all your subsequent comments were also dismissed. The question is whether it's a bug or whether the short, uninteresting nature of +1s devalues comments in this algorithm. I think it's the latter, unfortunately. I'll have questions for Tommy.
Well my Kinja career is off to a fucking roaring start.
For the record, my comment on the Venus Williams post was in response to the original picture that accompanied the story, which depicted Venus putting a towel over her face. Classic.
Then again, now it appears that you can't even see the comment anyway. And V8, I have no clue what happened with your +1, but you and I both know I'm not in the business of rejecting validation.
I think the comments are off to the right. You have to click the little arrows and then you get a drop down menu of comments, or at least the commenter's avatar.
I initially thought it would be ok, slightly worse than the old system. But then I realized I was missing a big aspect of it - there is a dimension of comments that I didn't even realize was there. As if I was a Flatlander experiencing 3-D for the first time.
What I thought it was:
Story Comment 1 thread -> Comment 2 thread -> Comment 3 thread with each comment thread starting with the original comment and showing all the replies
and I was ok scrolling from comment thread to comment thread
But then I realized it's: Story | -Comment 1 thread | | Subcomment 1 (reply to original comment), with a string of replies to this particular subcomment | | Subcomment 2 (reply to original comment), with a string of replies to this subcomment
As an example, the "Welcome to the New Commenting..." post currently has 82 posts listed. The 2nd is Sharting's comment, which generated 4 comment responses, but you can only see those 4 comment responses by clicking through the individual subcomments. The only thing you can see initially is that Raysism and Always Winning replied in one subcomment thread. I couldn't even figure out that Always Winning, Erg, and IMG had also replied to Sharting's original comment.
3-D chess is an accurate description. It sucks. (Not 3-D chess - I assume that's awesome.) And I know I've only played with it for a few minutes, but it's enough to know it sucks. One big reason is that originality matters, and it's just too damn hard to figure out if someone has already said the clever, awesome thing I want to say.
Unfortunately, I tend to think this is spot on. Even if we all eventually learn to navigate the thing, it's going to be infinitely harder to find gems in the earlier comments and to see if your joke has already been attempted.
On the upside, I can now just wait until I see AzureTexan's avatar, copy and paste, and no one will be the wiser.
Craggs: Alright boys, today's theme is "Rapid fucking fire." The more posts we get up, the less time the commenters will have to realize what a clusterfuck the new system is. I'll start off with an announcement to the commenters.
I may be right behind you. It's a cool idea, but having to click twenty times to see shit -- and still have no idea who said what first -- seems a nonstarter to me. I haven't even read the last two posts, so someone tell me if someone says something funny.
I'm still up in the air, but I think that one big thing that Denton completely overlooked in the redesign was the time commitment required to read through the comments. Most of us - myself included - comment while at work, and when we had a one-page system, it wasn't terribly time consuming to read through all of the comments on a post.
With this new system, it seems like it will take entirely too much time to click through and read everything, which was important for the comedic nature of DS commenting.
This is so stunningly bad that I now think it's likely that it will return to the old setup. I just can't understand how this will benefit Denton in any way.
Since kinja is great for leaks, wouldn't you love to see a bunch of "I was molested" burners on the Dana Jacobson post? Wouldn't that just make your day?
Serious Question: does every click on a different avatar or subcategory count as a new page view? And if so, does it also reload all the data hacking your mobile data usage through the roof?
I would assume. That's the only conceivable reason for this bullshit.
But it's self-defeating, of course, in that it will ultimately drive pageviews down. And I can't imagine advertisers will be fooled by this pageview inflation for very long (if at all).
If, as we suspect, the point is to sell ad space on individual comments, then it would have to count as something, at least. It may not be a full page view, but that's the paradigm Denton is trying to create, and if you sell ads you gotta have views. It stands to reason that those are all individual page views.
And I don't know how mobile data works, but the Kinja interface is (thankfully) neutered on my phone. It actually looks like a refreshed, non-starred version of the old system, which looks pretty good. But I would assume it doesn't reload the page for all the nested replies. Unless it did that before.
The funny thing is that I didn't dismiss him -- I see that he left me a latin reply, but then when I click on it, it says it's been removed. So I don't know who did it.
Ok. So, there was apparently a misunderstanding as to how +1's were going to be treated in the new system. At first obviously they were to be discredited and stopped, essentially. But then it seemed like the tech people had dropped that bit of it. Obviously they had not.
Craggs just went to bat for the commenters getting screwed by this and got them to change the algorithm (whatever that means, honestly) so that +1's are now neutral and the system will be able to "see" them and not immediately ignore and therefor discredit them. This was not something they wanted to do but I guess Craggs convinced them. They may consider giving them positive weighting in the algorithm at some point but who knows. It sounds like this should take effect pretty soon if not already.
As for the Guy Who burner accounts, do you guys who realize what you're doing? Remember all the fun Deadspin commenters had invaded other sites and making a fuckstorm out of their comment sections? Good times right? You're basically cannibals now.
And, let me add my voice to this, please do not troll Deadspin. Remember that's what we were all concerned about. You can troll here. This is the lawless zone. Deadspin has rules and fucking respect them. I know we all are adjusting and have concerns but this is like shitting in your own bedroom because you don't like how it was repainted
SbV8, I think you should be in the clear because, I think, your comments were getting pushed down because of the +1's. The system was interpreting them negatively and pushing it further down and then maybe interpreting that as originating with you?? I don't know, but this should fix it shortly if it hasn't already. If not, drop me or anyone else a line and we'll try to sort it out.
For the most part they want editors and moderators to focus on promoting good shit and not indulging the garbage. I guess this makes the system more effective. So, it will require restraint from everyone involved. Commenters, mods, editors, etc.
I only mentioned it because I found it to be a pretty funny commentary on people who supposedly "Get it."
Hey DJ, gimme a beat. No, not that one. Over one. No, dude, look, you have to click the icon to the right. I know, it's fuckin' stupid. Just do it for me. There it is. Aight, let's do this.
YO! It’s the rap machine Schoolin’ balogs like the Deadspin dean Have you ever seen Baloggert get down? Harper Bryce says bro question, clown Oh yeah, run that last line back Palindromic lyrics ‘cause I got the sack Used to rock, the comment space With the humor of a younger Chevy Chase Kinja, you’ll know we ain’t playin’ When you see the pink spider or the mantis that’s prayin’
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! NO NO NO NO!
Kinja, must be a trap Can’t comment so I wrote the KINJA RAP “Dismiss”? Do you know what that means? Fuckin’ up, all our joking routines It’s broken, comments devoured Longin’ for stars hour after hour A balog emcee, I ain’t a beginner And like all you a resident ‘Spinner Hatin’ on Kinja like never before A brand new kind of Internet war, it’s the
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! NO NO NO NO!
Burners, better run and hide If we ever hit our Kinja stride Denton said, the new system is slick But I’ll get carpal tunnel with just another mouse click Rockin’ the balog the way it should be rocked With a Kinja roundup like my name was Shitehawk Slow to figure this out I’m a Kinja turtle But as you just heard, my raps remain fertile The system blows but just hold on, Or boycott this shit ‘til Kinja’s gone, that’s
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! NO NO NO NO!
What are the potential threats to the security of our accounts and the functions they're linked to (In my case, gmail.) with this new commenting system?
Yes, that must be it. And maybe Denton is part of an Illuminati backed shadow government responsible for everything from the Iraq war to the assassination of President Kennedy.
Or maybe they just thought this would freshen things up?
Someone emailed me to ask if that was me posing as comment_ninja with a burner account. Lest I be blamed for such shenanigans, that is 100% not me. The only comment I've left today was a question in the Kinja open thread.
I don't want to get blamed for shit I'm not doing. I really don't like the new system right now, so I've barely been over there, though (as my question pointed out) reading the comments on the iPhone seems far superior than the laptop right now.
You know, as a formerly starred commenter I wish I could support this system or at least pretend to support it. But all evidence suggests that the only way I could do that would be to take on a low paid junior editor position.
Who would have thought that one would be forced to sell their soul after leaving the legal profession?
Hey man, if you've paid attention, I've defended each and every iteration of commenting systems (well before I ever had any position at Deadspin) for the same reason: It's different, but just deal with it. If that's a problem for you, then go right on ahead and be done with it. You can join the Afinos and Yostals and Ukrainenotweaks of the world who decided the same thing and who you likely replaced.
For those who want to complain but are late to the game, let me summarize the Deadspin defenses:
1) "We've changed many times but it always works out"
[I've been here for 6 years. The old changes were either purely about navigation or were quickly reversed (e.g., when replies weren't nested for about 2 months). This is fundamentally different in that it is a calculated attempt to drive page views rather than increase page load time or usability.]
2) "You haven't even tried it yet."
[Yes. Yes, we have. It doesn't take too many tastes of shit-flavored lollipops to decide that you don't like shit-flavored lollipops.]
3) "This has been well thought through"
[So much so that we abandoned the PowWow version after 3 weeks.]
4) "This isn't about page views."
[Can you please run one more Bleacher Report parody so we can be sure?]
Not saying I didn't deserve it, but my point is this - I read 100% of what's on Deadspin. I comment like never, anymore. It's disappointing that I can't read it anymore because it's unreadable. The commenting itself, well that works just fine. Reading the top comments, it looks great. I like the look and feel of it. I'm just asking for a chronological list, like everybody else.
That was absolute shit. I said so on Twitter. I said so to Craggs a few minutes ago in the "comment" post. And, I'll say so here.
I can deal with changes to the commenting regime. I've tried to be respectful and accept the evolution of the site, but lashing out at valued commenters is just bush league.
Polk's a friend and his work has generated more mainstream publicity for Deadspin than just about anyone else, so he has my respect, but I guess I don't see it as out of line. It didn't come until after he turned down a polite invitation to join the chat, and it wasn't like he got called a shitpile. It was an attempt at humor, and I thought it was a funny retort without any genuine malice attached.
- Guy Who Wrote A Profile of Polk Panther that Mocked his Fight With Cancer
Is there any doubt that it is Craggs? The guy has an inferiority complex which he has rightfully earned after being beaten down by multiple commenters in the last few years. He is the classic example of a guy of mediocre intelligence who can write a nice sentence and stumbled upwards after everyone more talented left. How many people go from a fumbling/bumbling appearance at a competitor's meeting ("OMG, Norby is TOTALLY LOOKING AT ME") to editor without having some sort of complex?
Jesus Christ IMG! You know they'll cast you out just as fast as they did the cancer guy, right? This is embarrassing - just quit your job, sign up for a weekend editor position, and let us all know where you stand. At least Sean has transparency on his side.
I do respect him for engaging. This is a tough situation - the PolkPanther reply was purely bush league, but I'm willing to write it off as an ill-advised response. We've all had them.
To be completely fair in my evaluation of this - I'll partially defend Kinja too. It looks good. I actually prefer the way it nests replies in the default view, because it's easier to track who is talking to who compared to the old way (although it's still inferior to a Reddit-style collapsible tree). The fatal flaw is in the magical non-chronological algorithm, and making it completely impossible to scroll through comments.
But then, I was about the only person who liked the redesign. So what do I know.
I'm stupid, I know, but how do I read the comments? The Craggs post ... about comments ... says it has like 280 replies. I found about 50 by clicking on avatars. When it says "one reply to" and there is one listed below, is that the reply, and do I click elsewhere? I don't get how this system works. Granted right now I am very sick and failing at basic things, but this is ridiculous.
Oh, and PolkPanther, that bullshit on Twitter on you being able to work Photoshop but not the new comments section? Lame.
Don't you remember the version of Photoshop where you had to click through four menus, solve a rebus, remember all of your pets' names in order, and answer a trivia question about ancient Roman politicians in order to resize something?
What's the over/under on the number of times Miserable Shitehawk would have to click in order to prepare a daily rundown that is anywhere near comprehensive?
Welp, comedy pyramids are indeed worse with the new system.
In response to Freeman McNeil's Dial soap pun, I made an Ivory soap pun in reply. Since people only see two examples before they click around, they don't know what's going on so now I have to dismiss replies such as, "An ivory tower of not making rape jokes, wow what a pretentious douchebag" (cool, it's just like Yahoo! sports) and "to consider rape jokes unfunny and tasteless you must live in an "ivory tower"? what's next, do you also sit on a "high horse"? thanks for the lack of insight, bro."
Yeah, it's just a mild pain the ass, and pun pyramids aren't the greatest thing in the world, but there's no way this idiot (troll?) would've been approved to comment before kinja.
Obvious response: just ignore it. Obvious reply: it just shouldn't be an issue on a site that had a well-vetted commenter base.
I really don't like the Kinja setup. It's tough to find the doubles of jokes. Good job on the Ivory soap pun. I was hoping to start something like that to see if piling on would help us understand the change better. I was wrong.
I very much enjoyed the Dial and Ivory jokes, @Freeman and @Always.
It's getting a little tedious to click through, but I guess it's just how it is! I really would love a different ALL view whenever they can program it.
I enjoy pyramids quite a bit, probably too much. They have led to some of the best examples of Deadspin commenting (the figurines and Bangladeshi jerseys come to mind). It will be a shame if Kinja cannot accommodate them.
The confusion is the problem. The inability to have one cohesive and collective commenting section, like the one we had fewer than 24 hours ago, will lead to more confusion and worse comments.
I'm not kidding, the commenting free-for-all is just beginning over there.
Well, don't know what I did wrong today. Deadspin kept asking me to sign in to post, even though i was signed in. Different browsers tried. Or, hm, maybe someone has blocked me forever...
I pretty rarely comment anymore, but I do enjoy reading the comments. I'm doing my absolute best to be patient and try to learn the new commenting system, but it seems to be an absolute clusterfuck.
I've already had to install a freaking script on Firefox just to be able to view stories in chronological order. That's annoying enough as it is.
But now we've got a commenting system that's basically like "Here's a bucket. When you make a comment, it goes into the bucket. When someone wants to read a comment, they stick their hand into the bucket and feel around until they can grab one out and read it. If they want to read another comment, they can reach back into the bucket and pull out another one."
This seems like a wonderful system for someone who has schizophrenia or some sort of memory disorder. For the rest of the people on earth who are used to seeing things organized in at least *some* sort of reasonable order, it's confusing as hell. It discourages conversation. It makes for a ridiculous amount of clicking and mousing around just to read comments, 90% of which have no payoff.
I also wanted to mention how I appreciate the "rollover preview" of each comment, so you can block your view of the comment you're reading with a partial view of another comment that you may or may not have already read. I liked the previous commenting system, but I always felt it was lacking in the ability to read garbled portions of two comments at the same time. Now, we can finally enjoy that.
I hope I'm either missing something or there are some changes coming because this doesn't seem very usable and I don't think I'm going to be able to download and run another script to fix it.
I don't comment much and never comment very well, but I have to say, I find the prospect of dropping a new, original comment into the bucket-o'-comments to be, well, pointless. As Greg the IT guy pointed out in the Kinja thread, they don't really want us making "standalone" comments anymore, just replying to each other. So, if I have a different joke to make, I'm basically casting it into oblivion, by design. Which, you know, sucks.
I simply don't believe anyone working for Deadspin can be genuinely optimistic about this. I understand cheese-mac and Tommy and the rest have to put on a brave face and project optimism, but I can't imagine how Deadspin's commenters can continue being funny and making jokes when Kinja, by design, only encourages discussion threads.
Both Tommy and the tech guys mentioned a 'view all' option would new forthcoming. That'll put everything in chronological order and should completely resolve everyone's major, and completely reasonable gripe.
Greetings everyone. The new system is giving me a migraine. I hate to say it, but my only reading and commenting at Deadspin and Gawker will now be entirely by mobile. It's a pain in the ass, but at least, for now, the threads are chronological.
I guess I should thank Denton, since instead of spending hours reading your guys' (hilarious) comments, I now have time to go home and pack for a move back to Boston in a week.
Nothing says, "we have no fucking clue what we're doing" like trying out a new commenting system on the worst and then, after not liking what you see, the best commenters you have. Basically, we're guinea pigs for the realization of Denton's coke-fueld daydreams about doing for comments what Google did for search.
There's a debate in the Pam Shriver post about the correct pronounciation of a particular call in tennis, as well as who said it. All I can picture is the red-shirt guy from the World of Warcraft Q & A.
I'm reading DS stories on my laptop and the comments on my phone. Now I gotta figure out how to change my goddamn Google sign-in name here. Getting drunk first. Love the site, Mikey!
There's no reason that the Deadspin comment section can't be recreated on this site or some other one! All that's needed are well written articles by articulate writers!
So I missed most of the fireworks today, but I've just spent an hour trying to run through today's stories (keyword: trying). That used to be enough to not only run through every story from the day, but also allow time to check every commment and laugh my ass off for the extra 45 minutes I had in that hour. As one unfunny but earnest commenter to a bunch of truly funny, hardworking commenters on this site: hopefully it's cool that I check in on these threads every now and then. I just don't have the time to sift through all of that bullshit. And man, there is some serious crap clogging up Deadspin right about now.
Well, one thing I didn't see anybody bitching about beforehand was the complete loss of our commenting histories. Ouch.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing (hoping) that's a temporary glitch. We'll see.
DeleteAnyone interested in a Kinja preview can read any Gawker article. It's up and running there.
I took you advice, Echo. This is what I saw.
Deletehttp://gawker.com/5921006/lonesome-george-the-worlds-rarest-giant-tortoise-found-dead?comment=50377265
(deep sigh)
I haven't really been following this all that closely -- did they ever say why they went from Pow Wow to Kinja? Are those two products from the same company (if that question makes any sense -- I assume they outsource this shit but maybe they created this all in-house)?
DeleteI don't know what happened to PowWow, but Kinja is apparently a Gawker thing:
Delete"With the intention of making web logs more accessible to the public, Nick Denton of Gawker Media and Meg Hourihan of Pyra Labs created Kinja, which began as an investigation into the navigation of web logs. It was dubbed Kinja in October of 2003."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinja
I'm just glad they didn't name it kinjo, which is currently the top listed hobby in West Fucking Virginia.
DeleteAlso, your comment history lives on - however briefly - if you swing over to lifehacker.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteOh boy, this is going to be awesome.
ReplyDeleteLooks like it might be time to switch to an avatar more easily distinguishable in those tiny thumbnails.
ReplyDeleteSo, I'm going to need to bite my tongue until I give this a bit more time.
ReplyDeleteWhat's that? Oh Jesus, I'm sorry. I could have sworn that was my tongue.
All my comments are now being summarily dismissed. I suppose bugs are unavoidable though.
ReplyDeleteI just noticed this. The comments with multiple +1s are shoved down to the bottom. You got so many so quickly that it was dismissed. This happened with PowWow: an initial dismissal meant all your subsequent comments were also dismissed. The question is whether it's a bug or whether the short, uninteresting nature of +1s devalues comments in this algorithm. I think it's the latter, unfortunately. I'll have questions for Tommy.
DeleteNo, no. I mean DISMISSED. Check out my history, I'm commenting into the void now.
DeleteYeah, sorry, that's what I meant. I don't know if it's permanent, but I think the auto-dismissal is actually working as they want it to, unbelievably.
DeleteWell my Kinja career is off to a fucking roaring start.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, my comment on the Venus Williams post was in response to the original picture that accompanied the story, which depicted Venus putting a towel over her face. Classic.
Then again, now it appears that you can't even see the comment anyway. And V8, I have no clue what happened with your +1, but you and I both know I'm not in the business of rejecting validation.
I think the comments are off to the right. You have to click the little arrows and then you get a drop down menu of comments, or at least the commenter's avatar.
Delete/bites tongue
//really bites tongue
///passes out
I initially thought it would be ok, slightly worse than the old system. But then I realized I was missing a big aspect of it - there is a dimension of comments that I didn't even realize was there. As if I was a Flatlander experiencing 3-D for the first time.
ReplyDeleteWhat I thought it was:
Story
Comment 1 thread -> Comment 2 thread -> Comment 3 thread
with each comment thread starting with the original comment and showing all the replies
and I was ok scrolling from comment thread to comment thread
But then I realized it's:
Story
|
-Comment 1 thread
|
|
Subcomment 1 (reply to original comment), with a string of replies to this particular subcomment
|
|
Subcomment 2 (reply to original comment), with a string of replies to this subcomment
As an example, the "Welcome to the New Commenting..." post currently has 82 posts listed. The 2nd is Sharting's comment, which generated 4 comment responses, but you can only see those 4 comment responses by clicking through the individual subcomments. The only thing you can see initially is that Raysism and Always Winning replied in one subcomment thread. I couldn't even figure out that Always Winning, Erg, and IMG had also replied to Sharting's original comment.
3-D chess is an accurate description. It sucks. (Not 3-D chess - I assume that's awesome.) And I know I've only played with it for a few minutes, but it's enough to know it sucks. One big reason is that originality matters, and it's just too damn hard to figure out if someone has already said the clever, awesome thing I want to say.
Unfortunately, I tend to think this is spot on. Even if we all eventually learn to navigate the thing, it's going to be infinitely harder to find gems in the earlier comments and to see if your joke has already been attempted.
DeleteOn the upside, I can now just wait until I see AzureTexan's avatar, copy and paste, and no one will be the wiser.
Totally agree on the originality piece. Someone is going to steal a good joke, and it won't be their fault.
DeleteWow, this requires a lot of clicking. I may get bored of this sooner than later.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Diablo 3 doesn't even REMOTELY live up to the hype.
DeleteThis commenting system looks pretty terrible, too.
Hah! +1
DeleteI got a late start on D3. All my L60 friends have stopped playing due to the 1.03c patch.
Deadspin Editorial Staff Meeting
ReplyDelete6/25/12 - 8:15 A.M.
Craggs: Alright boys, today's theme is "Rapid fucking fire." The more posts we get up, the less time the commenters will have to realize what a clusterfuck the new system is. I'll start off with an announcement to the commenters.
Drew: (via Skype) Shit yes! I saw a movie once.
Well, it's been real. I don't have the patience or desire to fucking click around all the time trying to figure out what's going on who said what.
ReplyDeleteI'll be around here somewhat I guess.
Bye, Deadspin commenting. I had fun!
I may be right behind you. It's a cool idea, but having to click twenty times to see shit -- and still have no idea who said what first -- seems a nonstarter to me. I haven't even read the last two posts, so someone tell me if someone says something funny.
DeleteI'm still up in the air, but I think that one big thing that Denton completely overlooked in the redesign was the time commitment required to read through the comments. Most of us - myself included - comment while at work, and when we had a one-page system, it wasn't terribly time consuming to read through all of the comments on a post.
DeleteWith this new system, it seems like it will take entirely too much time to click through and read everything, which was important for the comedic nature of DS commenting.
If someone actually thinks that system is better somehow, I'd be surprised. Oh well, I could stand to be a little more productive anyway.
Delete+1
ReplyDeleteI DON'T LIKE THIS!
ReplyDeleteThis is so stunningly bad that I now think it's likely that it will return to the old setup. I just can't understand how this will benefit Denton in any way.
ReplyDeleteI did get a kick out of one of you idiots posting as "Guy Who Explains Jokes".
ReplyDeleteYeah, the one thing I'm looking forward to is more "Guy Who" burners.
DeleteFor those opposed, who monetize a dis
ReplyDeletePete tell 'em: "Monetize this!"
Kinja...gets the Gas Face!
DeleteSince kinja is great for leaks, wouldn't you love to see a bunch of "I was molested" burners on the Dana Jacobson post? Wouldn't that just make your day?
ReplyDeleteSerious Question: does every click on a different avatar or subcategory count as a new page view? And if so, does it also reload all the data hacking your mobile data usage through the roof?
ReplyDeleteI would assume. That's the only conceivable reason for this bullshit.
DeleteBut it's self-defeating, of course, in that it will ultimately drive pageviews down. And I can't imagine advertisers will be fooled by this pageview inflation for very long (if at all).
If, as we suspect, the point is to sell ad space on individual comments, then it would have to count as something, at least. It may not be a full page view, but that's the paradigm Denton is trying to create, and if you sell ads you gotta have views. It stands to reason that those are all individual page views.
DeleteAnd I don't know how mobile data works, but the Kinja interface is (thankfully) neutered on my phone. It actually looks like a refreshed, non-starred version of the old system, which looks pretty good. But I would assume it doesn't reload the page for all the nested replies. Unless it did that before.
So,you guys see Raysism dismiss BronzeHammer??? MEOW!!!
ReplyDeleteDo tell.
Funniest thing he ever did.
DeleteThe funny thing is that I didn't dismiss him -- I see that he left me a latin reply, but then when I click on it, it says it's been removed. So I don't know who did it.
DeleteOk. So, there was apparently a misunderstanding as to how +1's were going to be treated in the new system. At first obviously they were to be discredited and stopped, essentially. But then it seemed like the tech people had dropped that bit of it. Obviously they had not.
ReplyDeleteCraggs just went to bat for the commenters getting screwed by this and got them to change the algorithm (whatever that means, honestly) so that +1's are now neutral and the system will be able to "see" them and not immediately ignore and therefor discredit them. This was not something they wanted to do but I guess Craggs convinced them. They may consider giving them positive weighting in the algorithm at some point but who knows. It sounds like this should take effect pretty soon if not already.
As for the Guy Who burner accounts, do you guys who realize what you're doing? Remember all the fun Deadspin commenters had invaded other sites and making a fuckstorm out of their comment sections? Good times right? You're basically cannibals now.
Thanks for the inside scoop, Sean.
DeleteAs far as Guy Whos, I like them here (for the most part) but over there it could turn into a real shitstorm.
CRAGGS SAVED DEADSPIN!!!!!
DeleteSeriously. That's good.
Yeah, I was about to make a Guy Who joke over there, but kept it here. I'm frustrated with the system, but it could easily spiral out of control.
DeleteThanks for the update, Sean.
DeleteAnd, let me add my voice to this, please do not troll Deadspin. Remember that's what we were all concerned about. You can troll here. This is the lawless zone. Deadspin has rules and fucking respect them. I know we all are adjusting and have concerns but this is like shitting in your own bedroom because you don't like how it was repainted
Let me know if they remove the 'auto dismiss any comments from SbV8' part of the algorithm.
DeleteCouldn't the comment, um, [sighs] fairies be taking care of this?
DeleteAgreed on the Guy Whos. Fine over here, but we don't need them taking over DS comments and making it a completely hostile environment.
DeleteSbV8,
DeleteI think you should be in the clear because, I think, your comments were getting pushed down because of the +1's. The system was interpreting them negatively and pushing it further down and then maybe interpreting that as originating with you?? I don't know, but this should fix it shortly if it hasn't already. If not, drop me or anyone else a line and we'll try to sort it out.
-Sean
Gamboa,
DeleteFor the most part they want editors and moderators to focus on promoting good shit and not indulging the garbage. I guess this makes the system more effective. So, it will require restraint from everyone involved. Commenters, mods, editors, etc.
I only mentioned it because I found it to be a pretty funny commentary on people who supposedly "Get it."
I emailed gawker help. But it won't even let me post anymore. Every attempt goes straight to dismissed.
DeleteI'm sure the Guy Who thing will die down pretty quickly, but the mere concept of burner accounts practically begs for similar shenanigans.
DeleteEveryone knows where I stand. An active ninj squad is good for all.
SbV8, you should be all set now.
DeleteAnd I'm back. Thanks Sean.
Delete"Guy Who" isn't always a troll. Sometimes "Guy Who" brings hysterical satire.
DeleteI found my voice, Raysism. It is't fun!! Kinja, more like JERKAS
ReplyDeleteHey DJ, gimme a beat. No, not that one. Over one. No, dude, look, you have to click the icon to the right. I know, it's fuckin' stupid. Just do it for me. There it is. Aight, let's do this.
ReplyDeleteYO! It’s the rap machine
Schoolin’ balogs like the Deadspin dean
Have you ever seen Baloggert get down?
Harper Bryce says bro question, clown
Oh yeah, run that last line back
Palindromic lyrics ‘cause I got the sack
Used to rock, the comment space
With the humor of a younger Chevy Chase
Kinja, you’ll know we ain’t playin’
When you see the pink spider or the mantis that’s prayin’
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO!
No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO!
NO NO NO NO!
Kinja, must be a trap
Can’t comment so I wrote the KINJA RAP
“Dismiss”? Do you know what that means?
Fuckin’ up, all our joking routines
It’s broken, comments devoured
Longin’ for stars hour after hour
A balog emcee, I ain’t a beginner
And like all you a resident ‘Spinner
Hatin’ on Kinja like never before
A brand new kind of Internet war, it’s the
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO!
No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO!
NO NO NO NO!
Burners, better run and hide
If we ever hit our Kinja stride
Denton said, the new system is slick
But I’ll get carpal tunnel with just another mouse click
Rockin’ the balog the way it should be rocked
With a Kinja roundup like my name was Shitehawk
Slow to figure this out I’m a Kinja turtle
But as you just heard, my raps remain fertile
The system blows but just hold on,
Or boycott this shit ‘til Kinja’s gone, that’s
Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! Kinja, Kinja, RAP! NO NO NO NO!
No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO! No Kinja, No Kinja, NO!
NO NO NO NO!
I know very little about viruses, hacking, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhat are the potential threats to the security of our accounts and the functions they're linked to (In my case, gmail.) with this new commenting system?
After going through two posts, my wrist is fuckin' killing me. I'm done with reading comments until I can "View All."
ReplyDeleteAre you on fleshbot, by any chance?
DeleteI stopped reading Gawker comments when they changed to Kinja a couple weeks ago. Maybe that's the point. Maybe they want fewer comments.
ReplyDeleteYes, that must be it. And maybe Denton is part of an Illuminati backed shadow government responsible for everything from the Iraq war to the assassination of President Kennedy.
DeleteOr maybe they just thought this would freshen things up?
FreemanMcNeil with the first legitimate dismissal! Come on forward if you had him in the pool.
ReplyDeleteThank you, thank you.
DeleteSomeone emailed me to ask if that was me posing as comment_ninja with a burner account. Lest I be blamed for such shenanigans, that is 100% not me. The only comment I've left today was a question in the Kinja open thread.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to get blamed for shit I'm not doing. I really don't like the new system right now, so I've barely been over there, though (as my question pointed out) reading the comments on the iPhone seems far superior than the laptop right now.
Thanks for listening.
You know, as a formerly starred commenter I wish I could support this system or at least pretend to support it. But all evidence suggests that the only way I could do that would be to take on a low paid junior editor position.
ReplyDeleteWho would have thought that one would be forced to sell their soul after leaving the legal profession?
The important thing is that you gave it a fair chance. It's been 4.0 billable hours and all.
DeleteSee you back in two weeks!
Hey man, if you've paid attention, I've defended each and every iteration of commenting systems (well before I ever had any position at Deadspin) for the same reason: It's different, but just deal with it. If that's a problem for you, then go right on ahead and be done with it. You can join the Afinos and Yostals and Ukrainenotweaks of the world who decided the same thing and who you likely replaced.
DeleteTake care,
-Sean
For those who want to complain but are late to the game, let me summarize the Deadspin defenses:
ReplyDelete1) "We've changed many times but it always works out"
[I've been here for 6 years. The old changes were either purely about navigation or were quickly reversed (e.g., when replies weren't nested for about 2 months). This is fundamentally different in that it is a calculated attempt to drive page views rather than increase page load time or usability.]
2) "You haven't even tried it yet."
[Yes. Yes, we have. It doesn't take too many tastes of shit-flavored lollipops to decide that you don't like shit-flavored lollipops.]
3) "This has been well thought through"
[So much so that we abandoned the PowWow version after 3 weeks.]
4) "This isn't about page views."
[Can you please run one more Bleacher Report parody so we can be sure?]
Who runs the Deadspin twitter feed? Whoever does is being kind of an ass.
ReplyDeleteWell I just got totally shit on by whoever does the Deadspin Twitter account. Classy customer service.
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/Deadspin/status/217330196947279872
Not saying I didn't deserve it, but my point is this - I read 100% of what's on Deadspin. I comment like never, anymore. It's disappointing that I can't read it anymore because it's unreadable. The commenting itself, well that works just fine. Reading the top comments, it looks great. I like the look and feel of it. I'm just asking for a chronological list, like everybody else.
Saw it in real time. That was bush league bullshit, right there.
DeleteI hate to say it, but - could the "Cincinnatus" reference have come from anyone but Tommy?
DeleteThat was absolute shit. I said so on Twitter. I said so to Craggs a few minutes ago in the "comment" post. And, I'll say so here.
DeleteI can deal with changes to the commenting regime. I've tried to be respectful and accept the evolution of the site, but lashing out at valued commenters is just bush league.
Craggs has brought up Cincinnatus before. And as Steve U said, who the hell else would talk like that?
Deletehttp://deadspin.com/mike-leake/
Whoa whoa, "valued"? Way to make a guy blush.
DeletePolk's a friend and his work has generated more mainstream publicity for Deadspin than just about anyone else, so he has my respect, but I guess I don't see it as out of line. It didn't come until after he turned down a polite invitation to join the chat, and it wasn't like he got called a shitpile. It was an attempt at humor, and I thought it was a funny retort without any genuine malice attached.
Delete- Guy Who Wrote A Profile of Polk Panther that Mocked his Fight With Cancer
@Steve U
DeleteIs there any doubt that it is Craggs? The guy has an inferiority complex which he has rightfully earned after being beaten down by multiple commenters in the last few years. He is the classic example of a guy of mediocre intelligence who can write a nice sentence and stumbled upwards after everyone more talented left. How many people go from a fumbling/bumbling appearance at a competitor's meeting ("OMG, Norby is TOTALLY LOOKING AT ME") to editor without having some sort of complex?
Dubai at Night: I would have loved to see that comment, but, well, you know.
DeleteJesus Christ IMG! You know they'll cast you out just as fast as they did the cancer guy, right? This is embarrassing - just quit your job, sign up for a weekend editor position, and let us all know where you stand. At least Sean has transparency on his side.
DeleteAll Apologetics: I tried to find it, but I can't even find my own comments any more. Sorry - but I promise it's there!
Delete[looks up]
[not sure I want to participate in this any more]
FWIW IMG, IDK if you saw I did comment LOL - http://deadspin.com/5921087/?comment=50384032
Delete/sorry
//gtg
All Apologetics, here is the link:
Deletehttp://deadspin.com/5921087/?comment=50384806
I do respect him for engaging. This is a tough situation - the PolkPanther reply was purely bush league, but I'm willing to write it off as an ill-advised response. We've all had them.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteTo be completely fair in my evaluation of this - I'll partially defend Kinja too. It looks good. I actually prefer the way it nests replies in the default view, because it's easier to track who is talking to who compared to the old way (although it's still inferior to a Reddit-style collapsible tree). The fatal flaw is in the magical non-chronological algorithm, and making it completely impossible to scroll through comments.
DeleteBut then, I was about the only person who liked the redesign. So what do I know.
Congratulations, buddy.
DeleteYou finally got me to delete. As everyone knows, I love a little controversy if it adds to readability.
Yours didn't, and it certainly wasn't needed today.
Toodles!
I'm stupid, I know, but how do I read the comments? The Craggs post ... about comments ... says it has like 280 replies. I found about 50 by clicking on avatars. When it says "one reply to" and there is one listed below, is that the reply, and do I click elsewhere? I don't get how this system works. Granted right now I am very sick and failing at basic things, but this is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteOh, and PolkPanther, that bullshit on Twitter on you being able to work Photoshop but not the new comments section? Lame.
Don't you remember the version of Photoshop where you had to click through four menus, solve a rebus, remember all of your pets' names in order, and answer a trivia question about ancient Roman politicians in order to resize something?
DeleteCicero! The answer is always Cicero.
DeleteUnless the question is "Which dude pulled his own bowels out," that was Cato.
Good news everyone. I think we're going to be okay.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the over/under on the number of times Miserable Shitehawk would have to click in order to prepare a daily rundown that is anywhere near comprehensive?
ReplyDeleteWelp, comedy pyramids are indeed worse with the new system.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Freeman McNeil's Dial soap pun, I made an Ivory soap pun in reply. Since people only see two examples before they click around, they don't know what's going on so now I have to dismiss replies such as, "An ivory tower of not making rape jokes, wow what a pretentious douchebag" (cool, it's just like Yahoo! sports) and "to consider rape jokes unfunny and tasteless you must live in an "ivory tower"? what's next, do you also sit on a "high horse"? thanks for the lack of insight, bro."
Yeah, it's just a mild pain the ass, and pun pyramids aren't the greatest thing in the world, but there's no way this idiot (troll?) would've been approved to comment before kinja.
Obvious response: just ignore it. Obvious reply: it just shouldn't be an issue on a site that had a well-vetted commenter base.
Wow, I should've proof-read that but you get the gist.
DeleteI thought the same thing about that post. Pyramids are gonna be pretty clumsy.
DeleteI really don't like the Kinja setup. It's tough to find the doubles of jokes. Good job on the Ivory soap pun. I was hoping to start something like that to see if piling on would help us understand the change better. I was wrong.
DeleteI very much enjoyed the Dial and Ivory jokes, @Freeman and @Always.
DeleteIt's getting a little tedious to click through, but I guess it's just how it is! I really would love a different ALL view whenever they can program it.
We'll have to see how DUAN stacks up tonight.
I enjoy pyramids quite a bit, probably too much. They have led to some of the best examples of Deadspin commenting (the figurines and Bangladeshi jerseys come to mind). It will be a shame if Kinja cannot accommodate them.
DeleteThe confusion is the problem. The inability to have one cohesive and collective commenting section, like the one we had fewer than 24 hours ago, will lead to more confusion and worse comments.
DeleteI'm not kidding, the commenting free-for-all is just beginning over there.
Well, don't know what I did wrong today. Deadspin kept asking me to sign in to post, even though i was signed in. Different browsers tried. Or, hm, maybe someone has blocked me forever...
ReplyDeletenewfat-leaveher
Ironically, I have "No Idea."
DeleteThank you for your interest in newfat-leaveher. We will get back to you when he stops trembling.
Delete-newfat
Welp, I'm frustrated.
ReplyDeleteI pretty rarely comment anymore, but I do enjoy reading the comments. I'm doing my absolute best to be patient and try to learn the new commenting system, but it seems to be an absolute clusterfuck.
I've already had to install a freaking script on Firefox just to be able to view stories in chronological order. That's annoying enough as it is.
But now we've got a commenting system that's basically like "Here's a bucket. When you make a comment, it goes into the bucket. When someone wants to read a comment, they stick their hand into the bucket and feel around until they can grab one out and read it. If they want to read another comment, they can reach back into the bucket and pull out another one."
This seems like a wonderful system for someone who has schizophrenia or some sort of memory disorder. For the rest of the people on earth who are used to seeing things organized in at least *some* sort of reasonable order, it's confusing as hell. It discourages conversation. It makes for a ridiculous amount of clicking and mousing around just to read comments, 90% of which have no payoff.
I also wanted to mention how I appreciate the "rollover preview" of each comment, so you can block your view of the comment you're reading with a partial view of another comment that you may or may not have already read. I liked the previous commenting system, but I always felt it was lacking in the ability to read garbled portions of two comments at the same time. Now, we can finally enjoy that.
I hope I'm either missing something or there are some changes coming because this doesn't seem very usable and I don't think I'm going to be able to download and run another script to fix it.
Jesus Christ. You're even hysterical when you're complaining.
DeleteEverything will be fine. Just make another Keith Hernandez joke, and watch all the +1s drag your comment down into obscurity.
I don't comment much and never comment very well, but I have to say, I find the prospect of dropping a new, original comment into the bucket-o'-comments to be, well, pointless. As Greg the IT guy pointed out in the Kinja thread, they don't really want us making "standalone" comments anymore, just replying to each other. So, if I have a different joke to make, I'm basically casting it into oblivion, by design. Which, you know, sucks.
DeleteI simply don't believe anyone working for Deadspin can be genuinely optimistic about this. I understand cheese-mac and Tommy and the rest have to put on a brave face and project optimism, but I can't imagine how Deadspin's commenters can continue being funny and making jokes when Kinja, by design, only encourages discussion threads.
This is all really, really depressing.
Both Tommy and the tech guys mentioned a 'view all' option would new forthcoming. That'll put everything in chronological order and should completely resolve everyone's major, and completely reasonable gripe.
DeleteGreetings everyone. The new system is giving me a migraine. I hate to say it, but my only reading and commenting at Deadspin and Gawker will now be entirely by mobile. It's a pain in the ass, but at least, for now, the threads are chronological.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should thank Denton, since instead of spending hours reading your guys' (hilarious) comments, I now have time to go home and pack for a move back to Boston in a week.
Hope it is okay to follow ya'll here.
Nothing says, "we have no fucking clue what we're doing" like trying out a new commenting system on the worst and then, after not liking what you see, the best commenters you have. Basically, we're guinea pigs for the realization of Denton's coke-fueld daydreams about doing for comments what Google did for search.
ReplyDeletedrops mic
Are you serious? Just take it down and spare the embarrassment.
ReplyDeleteThere's a debate in the Pam Shriver post about the correct pronounciation of a particular call in tennis, as well as who said it. All I can picture is the red-shirt guy from the World of Warcraft Q & A.
ReplyDeleteI'm reading DS stories on my laptop and the comments on my phone. Now I gotta figure out how to change my goddamn Google sign-in name here. Getting drunk first. Love the site, Mikey!
ReplyDeletePrick Top
There's no reason that the Deadspin comment section can't be recreated on this site or some other one! All that's needed are well written articles by articulate writers!
ReplyDeleteSo I missed most of the fireworks today, but I've just spent an hour trying to run through today's stories (keyword: trying). That used to be enough to not only run through every story from the day, but also allow time to check every commment and laugh my ass off for the extra 45 minutes I had in that hour. As one unfunny but earnest commenter to a bunch of truly funny, hardworking commenters on this site: hopefully it's cool that I check in on these threads every now and then. I just don't have the time to sift through all of that bullshit. And man, there is some serious crap clogging up Deadspin right about now.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason to hate Hot Pockets.
ReplyDeleteI just went back to Deadspin -- seems to be working better now.
ReplyDelete